JULIE SANDINE: SECRETARY
MINDFUL LEADERS IN THE LAW: An interview with Julie Sandine
By Christopher J. Lhulier
We are very excited to bring you the first interview of 2021 in the Mindful Leaders in the Law series. Our goal, through this series, is not only to strengthen our community by sharing interesting conversations with some of the amazing individuals who make-up MILS. We hope, by spotlighting the paths and practices of others, to also inspire and empower our members to build their mindfulness practices in creative ways that are uniquely satisfying to them.
This month I talked to MILS’ Secretary, Julie Sandine. Julie is an attorney, educator and counselor. As an assistant dean at Vanderbilt Law School, she created programming to enhance law student well-being and taught courses focusing on attorney well-being, professional identity, legal ethics, and academic success. In addition to being the founding Secretary of MILS, Julie serves on numerous committees, boards, foundations and groups focused on the physical and mental health and well-being of legal professionals and law students.
I had a chance to ask Julie about the evolution of her personal mindfulness practice as well as her thoughts about the progress that is being made towards integrating mindfulness and well-being programs into the legal culture. We also talked about the role of mindfulness in counseling those affected by physical health challenges, abuse, depression and anxiety. Julie’s long and impressive career is a testament to her dedication as an advocate for improving the health and well-being of lawyers and law students. Julie is self-described as loquacious, but based on our conversation, I would describe her as thoughtful and insightful. We hope you enjoy our conversation with her:
Q: How did you begin practicing mindfulness?
A: I first learned about mindfulness meditation after I became Assistant Dean for Student Affairs at the Vanderbilt Law School. I had been searching for meaningful, beneficial programming for the law students, as I recalled vividly how challenging and stressful the experience was, particularly during the first year. I searched for resources that could help students cope with this daunting experience, but found the stress and time famine of law school kept most students from attending stress, time management and other workshops. I consulted with colleagues at Vanderbilt and a wonderful psychiatrist told me about an empirical study that demonstrated the Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) technique was statistically significant in reducing the stress experienced by medical students. This was encouraging to me, for if this technique helped medical students, surely it would also benefit law students. I knew students wouldn’t sacrifice an hour a day doing cardio to relieve stress, but they might be willing to spend 10 minutes a day to meditate.
I was able to hire a wonderful couple to teach mindfulness in Supportive Practices, a non-credit offering available to first year law students during the first 10 weeks of the fall semester. I didn’t feel I could advocate use of this technique without undertaking it myself, so I learned the technique along with the students and strived to practice it daily from that point on, as I encouraged students to do. I was able to provide Supportive Practices for 1L students for 4 years, along with some other mindfulness programming for law students generally, and then continued Supportive Practices as a voluntary twice-weekly gathering for law and other graduate students.
I was asked to share our experience with Supportive Practices at the Mindful Lawyer Conference hosted by Berkeley in 2010 and was thrilled to meet so many other lawyers and professors who were committed to mindfulness and its potential for helping our struggling profession. There I had the good fortune of meeting Charlie Halpern, Richard Reuben (co-founder of MILS) and Scott Rogers (our current co-president and an original founding board member), as well as Rhonda Magee, Judi Cohen, and Steve Hornsby (three of our current board members). It was invigorating and uplifting to know the mindfulness community was already this extensive, with practitioners across the country who were interested in working together to reduce suffering in our profession and society overall.
Q: Has your mindfulness practice evolved through time?
A: Definitely. It has been interesting to see the progression of my practice over the years, an evolution that is ongoing and continues to mature and deepen. While I initially undertook mindfulness in an effort to reduce stress and more effectively cope with challenging situations (for law students and myself), a rather “practical,” pragmatic focus, I now experience it as a fundamental process of enhanced self-awareness and personal/professional growth and nurturance. As I have learned more about the teachings underlying mindfulness, which were shared thousands of years ago, I can readily see they remain completely relevant in today’s world and provide important insights. Even as a novice, I recognize these teachings provide a coherent and firm foundation from which the benefits of enhanced self-awareness, improved concentration, greater calmness and equanimity, decreased stress, increased resilience, positive interpersonal relations and overall greater well-being derive.
A factor that has also been important in the evolution of mindfulness in my life is another contemplative practice, my regular yoga practice. I discovered the Iyengar style of yoga and realized that it resonates powerfully with my sense of the world and self. Its focus on precision and recognition of the direct mind/body connection, as well as awareness of the duality of the muscles used during poses, makes one aware of and experience the present moment in a vivid and direct way. Being able to attend my yoga classes (albeit via Zoom now) has helped me incorporate yoga into my daily schedule and also continue to learn, challenge myself, find balance, and practice in community.
Q: As an educator, do you believe it is important to introduce mindfulness and other tools to enhance well-being to law students before they enter their careers?
A: Absolutely! I so wish I had known about mindfulness while I was in law school, as I know it would have helped me immeasurably to adapt to and manage the foreign and overly competitive environment of law school and its many daunting challenges. If students can be introduced to mindfulness at the onset of their law school careers and incorporate it into their lives, they will be able to develop the perspective and resilience necessary to handle and benefit from the new challenges and disappointments facing them. In addition, and perhaps even more importantly, they will gain the self-awareness that enables them to avoid being swept into what I refer to as “the vortex,” the ultra-competitive law school environment in which students often allow the intrinsic motivators that inspired them to become lawyers to be supplanted by extrinsic motivators others use to define “success” (i.e., being in the top 10%, being on Law Review, getting a job in Big Law, making a lot of money). Being self-aware and mindful of the subtle but substantial pressure to conform can help a law student stay true to herself and remain on the path to personal and professional fulfillment, rather than being side-tracked by what others falsely define as success.
Q: Do you find that law students, relative to practicing attorneys, are interested in mindfulness and other well-being practices and ready to prioritize those practices in their lives?
A: Law students and others of the younger generation seem better able to recognize the importance and value of well-being and balance needed to achieve quality of life and personal fulfillment. As such, most of them consider these priorities and seem more open to exploring innovative techniques and strategies in order to achieve this goal. They are not dismissive of contemplative practices in the same way that many older lawyers are, who frequently categorize them as “fluff” or unimportant and fail to recognize them as powerful techniques for self-betterment and growth. In contrast, the younger lawyers are often not only willing to try them, but are enthusiastic about such resources (and some have already been introduced to them in school or by parents). Part of this openness might be due to the fact that many younger people have been exposed to counseling and/or therapy in their personal lives, so they are open and accepting of the fact that such resources are not only often necessary to deal with crisis situations, but also are beneficial for general well-being.
Q: Do you think meaningful progress is being made towards mindfulness and well-being programs eventually being an integral part of the culture of law school and the legal profession?
A: It is exciting to see the progress made in some law schools, such that credit-bearing courses focusing on mindfulness and “contemplative lawyering” are now made available and students are clamoring to enroll, with long waiting lists often resulting. Enhanced productivity, decreased attrition, improved resilience, and increased job satisfaction have demonstrated the value of such programming, such that some law firms have even established specific departments to create and administer well-being and mindfulness programming for their lawyers and staff. Publication of the Path to Lawyer Well-Being and its endorsement of the beneficial effects of mindfulness meditation, yoga, qi gong, and other contemplative practices, did much to “normalize” these valuable resources, encourage lawyers to undertake them, and challenge law firms to create environments that are supportive of such efforts. Of particular importance is the Path’s specific definition of lawyer well-being as an integral component of a lawyer’s ethical duty of competence. As such, lawyer well-being isn’t just something to be considered “if you have time” – rather, it must be a priority if we are to fulfill our duty of competence.
Q: You have experience in the areas of women’s health care, counseling, and crisis intervention. Do you think mindfulness has a role in counseling those affected by physical health challenges, abuse, depression and anxiety?
A: Absolutely! The act of mindfully sitting with an open attitude, exploring what that experience entails with a sense of curiosity and interest, better enables us to become familiar and comfortable with our bodies and the changes, symptoms or problems we are experiencing or have encountered and survived. Jon Kabat-Zinn demonstrated that providing MBSR training to chronic pain patients enabled them to more effectively manage and tolerate physical pain. With mindfulness, we are able to explore what we experience, rather than reflexively resisting or trying to push away pain or discomfort. Likewise, providing those who’ve survived abuse or other trauma with the means and strength to identify and understand the negative impact they’ve sustained can allow them to gain resilience and insight from the experience, rather than be crushed by it.
Q: Do you have a go to mindfulness practice for those days when you do not have time to do a formal sitting?
A: I typically rely on several deep inhalations, followed by slow, cleansing exhalations, which helps my nervous system calm down and brings me back to the present moment (rather than be carried away by whatever intrusive or anxious thoughts are trying to highjack my attention). What has worked best for me is incorporating my practice into a daily morning routine, akin to brushing my teeth and other morning ablutions. However, the pandemic and a more flexible schedule have disrupted what previously was a more consistent and regular practice. I hope to establish a more set schedule on my own, despite the flexibility inherent in my current situation, since that resulted in much greater consistency in my practice on the cushion, and also was wonderful preparation for the day ahead.
Q: What advice would you give law students and young lawyers who want to balance their career success with their overall physical, emotional, psychological and spiritual well-being?
A: I would recommend they frequently revisit the reasons motivating them to become lawyers and make certain their goals and definition of success are self-driven, rather than imposed by others, and include health in these essential areas as a priority. (One suggestion is to keep a copy of the personal statement included in one’s law school application and review it from time to time as a reminder of what inspired this monumental step). Consider what tasks bring satisfaction and what personal strengths you used in fulfilling them. What purpose or calling in your work elicits joy and fulfillment? What area of the law allows you to use your strengths, be true to yourself, and follow your heart’s desire? It is important to consider all of these factors – identified in the Path (and by psychologists) as essential for happiness and fulfillment – and be mindful of them while thoughtfully and intentionally making each choice presented along one’s career path.
Toward that end, I suggest they read the Path to Lawyer Well-Being and explore its recommendations to see what resonates with their personality and preferences, incorporating those into their daily lives. Chief among these are the various contemplative practices, which provide essential self-awareness and offer a spectrum of opportunities suitable for whatever the moment might require. Yoga, qi gong, or tai chi are beneficial for those times when we feel the need for greater physical activity, while mindfulness meditation is perfect when sitting in stillness is preferred and a walking meditation can serve as an intermediate approach. The key is to choose practices that resonate and work best for the individual, so they can be undertaken consistently and sincerely, with an open heart and mind.